Jeff Cooper, Handgun fundamentals

[Lonestar grips.]

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[Riverpigusmc]

The Colonel was one of the best when it came to combat handguns

[sdmc530]

Originally Posted by Riverpigusmc

The Colonel was one of the best when it came to combat handguns

this....good vid

[brownie]

Weaver stance sucks, it got officers killed on the streets rooting in stance. Think he'd be standing still if taking incoming like that first 30 seconds?

[Lonestar grips.]

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[brownie]

But was he rooted like that picture? He couldn't have been using the Weaver stance, it was "new" to him in 59-60 when Jack started shooting the leather slap matches in 59.

[Rick McC.]

Originally Posted by brownie

But was he rooted like that picture? He couldn't have been using the Weaver stance, it was "new" to him in 59-60 when Jack started shooting the leather slap matches in 59.

I believe that the point to be made here is that there's "shooting" (whatever stance you prefer), and then there's "gunfighting" (and surviving).

No offense intended, or disrespect to the Colonel.

[Lonestar grips.]

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[Rick McC.]

Originally Posted by Lonestar grips.

the point I was trying to make was the man having been a Marine in WW2 and the Korean war had probably shot people and been shot at, so since he had actual real world experience do you think he would adopt a stance or technique if it didn't have merit in certain applications???


maybe i'm wrong but no two gunfights are ever the same. you could be at a gas station one day and 10 bad guys come in armed with AK's attempting to rob the place, in that scenario i'd damn sure move and take cover while asking the good Lord to save my ass one more time.

on another day you could be at the same gas station when 1 bad guy attempts to rob it, if that's the scenario then what's wrong with me drawing my side arm and shooting the bad guy, all while in the Weaver stance???

I don't know you or your background, you could be Alvin York, Chesty Puller and Audie murphy all rolled into one or you could be somebody who's read and knows lot but never actually had shots fired at you. I just don't know, what I do know is I grew up around several men who had been in gunfights and lived. while he never would say how many I know for a fact my Father was in multiple gunfights while he was a Marine, a deputy sheriff and on the anti drug task force in Austin. something they all had in common was they listened to what Col Cooper had to teach, that's good enough for me.

:

Brownie's the real deal.

If you ever get a chance; train with him.

Then you'll understand.

Happy New Years to you and yours, my friend!

[brownie]

Originally Posted by Lonestar grips.

the point I was trying to make was the man having been a Marine in WW2 and the Korean war had probably shot people and been shot at, so since he had actual real world experience do you think he would adopt a stance or technique if it didn't have merit in certain applications???


maybe i'm wrong but no two gunfights are ever the same. you could be at a gas station one day and 10 bad guys come in armed with AK's attempting to rob the place, in that scenario i'd damn sure move and take cover while asking the good Lord to save my ass one more time.

on another day you could be at the same gas station when 1 bad guy attempts to rob it, if that's the scenario then what's wrong with me drawing my side arm and shooting the bad guy, all while in the Weaver stance???

I don't know you or your background, you could be Alvin York, Chesty Puller and Audie murphy all rolled into one or you could be somebody who's read and knows lot but never actually had shots fired at you. I just don't know, what I do know is I grew up around several men who had been in gunfights and lived. while he never would say how many I know for a fact my Father was in multiple gunfights while he was a Marine, a deputy sheriff and on the anti drug task force in Austin. something they all had in common was they listened to what Col Cooper had to teach, that's good enough for me.

In ww2, he served in the Pacific on the USS Pennsylvania after receiving a commission upon graduating from Stanford Univ.. Not much shooting at or getting shot at there. After the war he was a promoted to Major and resigned his commission in 1949. Returned to active duty during the Korean conflict where he's reportedly involved in "irregular warfare" but no one including himself has ever suggested he had fired on or been fired on by others in that role. In other words, there's NO documentation to suggest [ including from his extensive writings ] that he'd drawn blood from the enemy in Korea, as he was never in a front line unit to anyone's knowledge. He is reported to have been involved in two pistol shootings, but there's little to no definative word on when or where even from himself in his extensive writings. One thing we can determine though, is that Copper wasn't using anything close to the Weaver stance in those altercations as it was long before he met Jack Weaver at Big Bear in 59.

He didn't develop the Weaver stance, he adopted it from Jack Weaver sometime after 1959 and his Big Bear leather slap matches, promoting it to students through his Gunsite shooting school in Az.

do you think he would adopt a stance or technique if it didn't have merit in certain applications???

He adopted Weavers stance because Jack was kicking arse in the leather slap matches using it against others who were shooting from the hip beyond hip shootings range. In other words, the modern technique and front sight press using a Weaver stance was born of competitions, not combat. As history demonstrates, Weaver stance is no longer considered in competitions, and has been replaced with the modified ISO stance. No one since the 80's has ever won a major national match using the Weaver stance. We do know that since the promotion and adoption of the modern technique, many leo's were killed in battles on the streets. Not surprising when the stance was developed out of competition effectiveness and not combat proven effectiveness. If you root you die, and the Weaver stance was born of rooting in place and taking a firing "stance".

Remember also that based on historical record, police officers using the Weaver stance and front sight press have only been successful at hitting their threats 17-21% of the time in gun battles on the streets for decades now [ and Weaver has been dropped by most LEA's who bought into that training for some time now ]. Weaver stances won a lot of matches over other methodologies being used at that time, hit rates were extremely high shooting at paper not shooting back, and it's promotion as an effective combat skill on the streets by Cooper based on his observations in competition was fully faulty and has proven to be a detriment on the streets at this time.

Was it better at winning matches against others who were handicapped by the distances Cooper set up in the matches? History says yes. Has it been as effective on the streets in gun battles? No, it hasn't even come close. So, one could say Cooper either didn't recognize it's inherent deficiencies on the street or he did and as a promoter went forward with pushing that stance and his "front sight press" skills on others. Weaver stance would have never gained traction except the f b i fell into the trap of adopting it based on competition results and not combat results. The reader will have to decide which intentions or motives Cooper had for promoting it.

something they all had in common was they listened to what Col Cooper had to teach, that's good enough for me

Am I to assume you use the Weaver stance and front sight press skills presently then?

Cooper had many opinions on many subjects, some validated on the streets, and others not so much like his promotion of Weaver and front sight press while "rooting" in place.

My background? From what we can ascertain, more combat experience in the military as far as "boots on ground in a combat zone" and most assuredly the 28+ years of street experience vs. the Col. I suspect there's more who have better creds and actual street experience than the Col. who are walking around today than most people would recognize on the face of simply based on his name recognition alone.

Not knocking his contributions to the shooting world [ of which there were many ], but I prefer to keep the legend/hype and myths separated from the facts and not get too wrapped up in "legends" and going on blind faith he knew better than others about staying alive on the streets. He did a short stint as a Dep Sheriff but that role was mostly honorary and not street, quite like Ayoob in todays world. People take Ayoob's rantings as gospel and have for almost as long as Cooper's himself. I could relate actual eye witness accounts about Ayoobs prowess with a gun as well as his drinking while shooting in matches, but that's for another time and thread. His reputation in the gun world is predicated on his writings, just like Coopers./