DW and internal or external extractors

[dwsmithjr]

I know this can be a matter of heated debate. There are the purists that would not buy a 1911 with an external extractor. There are arguments as to which is better, more reliable, more durable, easier to adjust and so on.

What I'm interested in is when DW made the transition. I noticed two later Patriots I have, have external extractors. I also have a pre-CZ, barely pre-CZ RZ10 that has an internal extractor. All the DWs now have internal extractors. I notice both Kimber and SA use only internal extractors. SIG uses external on both their P-series and 1911s (at least the non-traditional line). However, there was a time when even with the P-series the guns had internal extractors.

Is one easier to manufacture? Is is largely, if not entirely, a technical decision based on the perceived benefits (whether real or imagined)? Are they simply easier to repair and replace?

Did DW always use external extractors from the time they started making 1911s or did they change to them at some point then change back? Anyone know?

[DrHenley]

Here is my take on DW and external extractors.

I have a DW Panther, and the external extractor just works. Just about every other semi-auto under the sun has external extractors. There is no reason why an external extractor can't work on a 1911. But from what I understand, Sig, S&W, and Kimber all had problems at first with their external extractors. Sig and S&W fixed the problems, but Kimber had a fatal flaw in their extractor design (way too short) and instead of fixing it just ditched the external extractor and went with an internal extractor.

There are so many Kimbers made, when they screw something up (and their external extractors were a major cluster) it has major repercussions, and they gave external extractors a very bad reputation among 1911 aficionados, who tend to be conservative anyhow and don't like people tinkering with JMB's design.

Between the bad rap Kimber caused, and the 1911 purists who would not like an external extractor no matter how well it worked, trying to be competitive with an unpopular feature is an uphill battle. Sig and S&W are 800 pound gorillas than can pretty much do what they want, and they obviously decided not to cater to the purists with their 1911s. I guess when CZ took over DW, they decided to go the more traditional route.

[dwsmithjr]

It was part consternation that they would change the traditional design and part the dismal failure of the design.

SIG has not been without their issues with their extractors mostly on the P-series but also on the 1911s. I believe it had to do with the "short" extractor.

I have to admit there is an aesthetic appear to the internal extractor on a 1911. However, it really doesn't make much difference to me as long as it works.

[dwsmithjr]

I suppose, given the attitude of many 1911 aficionados and the history of the design, it may have been deemed wise to take the conservative route and stick with the internal extractor.

You're probably NOT going to put anyone off with the internal extractor but definitely WILL put off a large number of enthusiasts with the external extractor. SIG had already "messed" with the design with the change in the slide profile which they continue to use predominantly in their 1911s with only a minimal node to the original design with their "traditional" models. Even there, they use the external extractor.

S&W doesn't seem to be that large a player in the 1911 market, but perhaps that isn't an accurate perception. I expect some people will buy a S&W 1911 simply because it is S&W as some will buy a SIG 1911 simply because it is a SIG.

[DrHenley]

All I knew about Sig before buying my first Sig 1911 was that they had a reputation for good triggers. I bought my first Sig because I could not find a VBob, much less afford one, and I looked at the Sig Fastback Carry as sort of a "Poor Man's VBob."

I was so impressed, I turned around and bought another Sig shortly thereafter (the one in my Signature).

So now, I have four 1911s with extractors (One DW, two Sigs, and one Mimber 22 Conversion slide) and the DW and Sigs just work. The Mimber 22 slide sometimes will leave a round in the chamber after firing. At the time I got it, I was not aware of the history of 1911 external extractors, and I studied it carefully to determine why it was slipping off of the rim. After careful analysis, I determined that the extractor was simply too short.

I had previous experience with short extractor problems - a Walther P-38 - that exhibited similar behavior to the Mimber 22 slide. What happens is that when you have a case that is difficult to extract, the short extractor quickly loses its grip because the angle of engagement with the rim changes very rapidly if the extractor swivels out slightly. On a long extractor, the angle doesn't change as much when the extractor swivels out a little. On an internal extractor, the extractor would have to bend for the angle to change because it doesn't swivel out like an external extractor.

Here is a graphic to illustrate:



I'm not so enamored of the internal extractors after going through hell with my Colt Series 80 (that gun wrote the book on 1911 malfunctions). And my Rock has some extractor issues of it's own (at least that's what people say causes it to eject forward)

[Riverpigusmc]

My Kimber has the external extractor. Never had a problem with it, but if you notice, Kimber went back to the internal, probably with good reason