FBI 9mm Justification.

[Sheepdog]

Originally Posted by brownie

Good to see you up and running this morning Joe, sorry we missed each other on the call and hope the boys practice went well.

Competitors learn to run the gun very efficiently in competition [ C ]. Yet they draw to eye level for every shot, and as you know, that's not the most efficient way to skin the cat under 12 feet when you're behind the curve, there are other more efficient/effective skills that can be employed.

There's learning to shoot and hit and manipulate the weapon and then there's learning how to stay alive with a weapon. Skills that could be employed, and should be employed are not employed in the games.

Put the average competitor [ only shooting in matches ] in a fof scenario, what they do in C isn't what you'll see them use in the field. That's a HUGE difference, and one that people who recognize it will seek others who can impart the skills of staying alive. That involves not just the shooting portion but the tactics portion.

I always laughed at how one could get a walk through of the course of fire before shooting it in C. There's no such thing in the real world, just another example of the disparity between the street training and the C's

But, but, but what if you train for and use both. I'm never going to beat Rob Lathem, I shoot Comp for fun and to practice my gun handling skills. IMHO they are not mutually exclusive.

[brownie]

IMHO they are not mutually exclusive.

Sorry if my comments led you to believe I thought they were. Of course they can't be as many skills necessary for both apply equally. Hand hold, trigger control and, sight alignment are basic skills that can and should be honed to a higher level than most take the time to learn until it's subconsciously ingrained.

Learning to shoot under pressure, even self induced as it may be, is a learning experience and over time stress is less apt to affect outcomes/shooting scores. That puts the games squarely in the camp of increasing some ability to run the gun under some stress level until the competitor gets comfortable shooting thusly. Though the stress induced in the games isn't near the same, any system that produces some stress is more beneficial to shooting for self defense than never having had to shoot under any more stress than one isn't happy with not being able to drill one hole.

Now, as for scoring in the games, they suck at getting people to realize you don't NEED A hits or down Zero hits on the street. In fact, I think more will take too much time trying to acquire an A or down Zero hit on the street if they are heavier into the games for most of their shooting time.

Another point of difference I mentioned previously, I'd use 1/2 hip, 3/4 hip or zipper more often on the street and using only one hand, but in the games, I'd got to line of sight or near line of sight and two hands "for the score". If one were to zipper in the games, one would be wasting time for score, where on the street, the zipper is a fight winner and in the games it's a detriment to score.

Some of the tactics that win games can get you killed on the streets, like having to reload form cover when on the street, I'll reload as I'm moving to cover, no wasting time waiting to get to some position before I can recharge and get back in the fight.

I played the games for some time, mostly plate shoots which gave practice for QK pistol skills on multiples. IPSC and IDPA, not so much but enough to know I didn't want my present skills to be altered or degraded by the gamers rules.

There are no rules on the street and there's no "look see" beforehand, of the course of fire on the street. In the game of staying alive, there are no do over or procedurals. My biggest concern for gamers is that those procedurals they try to avoid for score could get someone killed unnecessarily

[bttbbob]

And gunfights are 360 without sidelines and endlines. Annnndddddd Ya don't use cover as a rest.................

[Sheepdog]

Good points. I don't shoot IDPA for the questionable rules. That and my race gun would be a little hard to conceal.

[brownie]

Originally Posted by Sheepdog

Good points. I don't shoot IDPA for the questionable rules. That and my race gun would be a little hard to conceal.

Here dat

[DrHenley]

IDPA has come out with some bizarre rules for sure, so our club now has "Defensive Pistol" matches that use mostly 2012 IDPA rules with some modifications. Our reload rules are more "real world."

IDPA is not a substitute for formal training, and before I started competing I did have an instructor work with me. But I still believe it is of immense value in developing muscle memory, learning to operate your pistol instinctively under pressure, and for testing your gun and ammo. Even though the pressure can't be compared to a life and death situation, the instinctive operation of your pistol WILL transfer. It has uncovered numerous flaws in my technique, and I have been able to adjust accordingly. For example I learned that when I have 8 rounds in a mag, I tend to not seat it completely on a tactical reload. Then after firing the next shot, the mag drops out. Knowing this, I have started carrying 8 round mags loaded to 7 rounds for my EDC. I tried this in a match and had no problems with seating the mags. I was at a disadvantage from a gaming standpoint, requiring more reloads, but I was never left with an empty pistol with a full mag on the ground.

I have started competing with a compact 1911 because that's what I carry. Shooting the plate racks didn't really bring out the difference between the two compact 1911s I have. But running them in an IDPA match was an eye opener.

How many USPSA competitors CARRY the same gun they use for competition? hmmm?

[zukinut]

None. That why I didn't play the games when I had the extra cheese. Now that I don't I just practice what I learned in the defensive courses I took.

Another note....

Brownie you still doing the class at OSS in November. Was needing the dates to make sure the little women is off one of the days so I can wander out and meet ya.