Question about cocked and locked for long periods of time.
 

Ok, so here's my newbie 1911 question:

I will use my Springfield RO 1911 for home defense as well as IDPA. I have 10rd CMC mags for HD and I want to keep it fully loaded and ready to go, which means one in the pipe, full 10rd mag inserted, hammer cocked, and thumb safety on (is this condition 1?). The gun goes in the safe during the day and when I get home it comes out and stays on my night stand, ready to defend home and freedom.

So, is it ok to leave the gun cocked and locked for prolonged periods of time? It's usually a full month or two before I shoot IDPA, where I will unload the gun for transportation purposes. I feel that the hammer cocked is under so much tension that leaving it like that for long periods of time (months) could induce a malfunction, as in hammer dropping? Obviously I need to study the 1911 design a lot more to fully understand how all the parts work and how the safety mechanisms are designed to work.

Right now I am keeping the 1911 with a full mag in, but no round in the pipe, so I would have to rack the slide in order to put the gun in action. I'm not comfortable with this to say the least.

Thank you for helping a newbie out!:D

Here you go....

Condition Three
In this condition the pistol contains a loaded magazine, the chamber is empty and the hammer is down. In order to fire the pistol, the slide must be cycled so that a cartridge is loaded into the chamber.

Condition Two
In this condition the pistol contains a loaded magazine, a cartridge loaded into the chamber and the hammer is down. In order to fire the pistol, the hammer must be cocked.

Condition One
In this condition the pistol contains a loaded magazine, a cartridge loaded in the chamber, the hammer is cocked, and the thumb safety is engaged. In order to fire the pistol, the thumb safety must be depressed, the grip safety depressed and the trigger pressed. This method is often called “cocked & locked.” It is the carry method most often used by police officers and armed citizens who carry a 1911 for personal defense.

Sorry for your other question Condition 1 for any time is fine. Its actually better to leave in a said condition because the wear from springs compressing and decompressing is harder on the pistol than leaving it in one condition for long periods of time. I leave my guns in condition 2 at all times. I practice drawing and putting down hammer. Just the way I like to do it. Condition 1 is ideal for carrying the gun for sure.

If I am wrong on the long term in a condition please correct me. This is what I was taught by our master armorer.

Thank you for the clarification, I found this info on YouTube as well, you are correct on all points above. I would absolutely carry a 1911 in Condition 1. But my concern is for long periods of inactivity leaving 1911 in Condition 1.

Why do you leave your 1911 in condition 2 if you just advocated for Condition 1 for daily carry or the fact it would put less wear on springs and sear? Seems like a contradiction to me. Please explain.

All my 1911 are safe queens. To be taken out on occasion, played with, cleaned, lubricated, and put away until next time.
To that end, before we were all issued a standard firearm, I sued to carry daily a 1911. I kept it in condition one, sometimes for extended periods of time before I had a chance to shoot them. Never had an issue.
Of course, that doesn't mean I didn't inspect them on a regular basis to make sure everything was functioning properly.

Thank you Tony :)

The wear only happens when you compress and decompress springs, so if you have your gun in whatever condion you choose your not wearing anything out really I guess. When you are not carrying gun do you unload it or do you leave it in a "condition" while in storage?

Yep I did say one thing and do another, but I just choose to carry in 2. Not saying its better. My opinion is if I am carrying a gun, how many times am I really going to pull the hammer back? Probably never? So not having the hammer cocked keeps the spring from being under pressure while not in use, so condition 2 has all its components in a resting state as if it were unloaded and in a safe.


I think in the end we are over thinking all of this. Springs are pretty cheap and a maintenance part in the end so I believe a person should carry the gun heck use the gun any way he feels comfortable with and not worry about a spring he may have to replace in 4,000 rounds instead of 6,000 rounds.

Again just my opinion I am by no means an expert. AND I am not most people but yest most carry in 1.

Hello Phil and I appreciate your responses but I am not talking about carrying the firearm. It sits in the safe and comes out at night for HD duty. I do not want to unload the gun before it goes in the safe just to re-load it at night, as this promotes bullet setback in the rounds when done often enough.

I'm seeking info regarding leaving it permanently Cocked and Locked, going C&L into safe, and coming out C&L ready for whatever goes bump in the night. I just want to know there's no way that hammer can fall onto the firing pin and discharge the weapon when left C&L for extended periods of time. That's all really.

I agree about maintenance and parts, it's all part of of owning a mechanical device (like a car) that needs inspection and attention from time to time.

Thank you again for contributing to this thread.

Condition 2 has a significant potential for ND on a pistol without a decocker (there is a reason they make decockers...). I personally have had three instances of my thumb slipping off of a hammer or cocking piece while lowering it on a loaded chamber. Muzzle was pointed in a safe direction all three times.

http://www.cotep.org/forum/picture.p...pictureid=1046

OH sorry I misunderstood the question. No harm will come to the firearm for sitting in condition 1 for a long period of time. If you are worried about it firing due to some crazy event in safe or in a nightstand I doubt this will happen if your gun is properly maintained. The palm safety makes it almost impossible to fire if its working properly, not to mention the thumb safety should be used as well, so it would have to fail on two levels and have the trigger pulled for it to potentially fire on a shelf. Never say never but doubt you would ever have an issue with a 1911, or a glock or m&p as well. They are engineered to not go off. I think its perfectly safe with monthly checks.

Hope this is a more clear answer


YES! You are very correct. BUT 1911's have a 1/2 cock for a reason I know this only works when cocking the pistol and not decocking but never tried that either. You still have to be safe and practice any skill and stuff does still happen.

Let me just say we have lots of great conversations on here and this one is a good one too. Lots of great thoughts coming from folks with great opinions and experiences. This is great, another forum I(we) used to belong to would have had this topic it would have already ended in somebody getting a short ban and people getting pissed at everyone else.

COTEP is the best.

OK, so I have been reading, watching video's, and whatnot about what condition to carry a 1911. I have watched about a dozen videos from different known gun trainers/mfgr's.

My name is Phil, and I am wrong about what condition I should carry my gun. Condition 1 is the proper way.....this might not be an epiphany but its the correct way. I found this video that I think explains it best. Doesn't go toward about his storage question, although I still think condition 1 is just fine for it.

Anyways 3 minutes of why John M. Browning is smarter than us:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1nskycsatTY

For reference, how to use the 1/2 cock. Best video I could find without making my own.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qR3muDeFTUA

Funny you and I watch the same videos, about this last video one of the things that kept popping up in the video comments is that the half cocked position is not meant to be used as resting point for the hammer as wear and possible tear can happen, it's another safety implemented into the 1911 design. The half cock position was meant as a last-ditch effort to catch the hammer before it hits the firing pin, discharging the gun. But it comes at a cost as it can actually damage the half cocked notch in the sear(?).

I have read many a thread on the sear and i think the repeated violent shooting and cycling is probably the hardest abuse you can do to a pistol. Think about the act of firing the gun then it cycles fast and hard.

Yes the half cock was put in place so the rider would not accidentally shoot his horse or so the story goes. The half notch is pretty small in comparison to the full cock. I could not find any info on sear failures that resulted in a shooting from the half cock but i am sure its happened. I would think if the sear failed you would notice the issues quickly? Maybe?

Agreed, very good thread by the way, great discussion.

Half cock notch on a 1911 is to catch the hammer in the case of the main sear failing. It is not a "safety" in the same sense some half cock notches are (Winchester model 94 for example). The firing pin is inertial (does not contact the primer when the hammer is fully lowered), so a blow to the hammer won't cause a discharge.

BTW, on Colt Series 80 pistols, the half cock notch is not captive. You can pull the trigger from half cock, and the hammer will fall the rest of the way, but not forcefully enough to set off a round.

http://www.cotep.org/forum/picture.p...&pictureid=888

Correct!!

I guess we could all just put firing pin plungers on all our pistols so that it still wouldn't fire if the sear fail...but that is another idea altogether.

This is why I hang out here. Go to one of the "big boards" and tell me when you've seen this statement:

"My name is Phil, and I am wrong about what condition I should carry my gun. Condition 1 is the proper way.....this might not be an epiphany but its the correct way."

We have lively discussions, sometimes agreeing to disagree, and much less trashing of other people's thoughts than most places. And if we're wrong, we usually admit it and move on.

Thank you Phil for your frankness and candor!

DaFadda

thanks Padre, I did learn a lot in the last few days about the 1911 that I actually didn't know. I am a condition 1 person know. When in 1911 group therapy next Tuesday night I will make my pentance with them :p

funny I'm glad this discussion helped some a bit, I've definitely learned more than a thing or two discussing the subject. COTEP is a great place of like-minded individuals. I wish we all lived closer to each other for an annual BBQ, Ell and Phil would be designated cooks!

One of the biggest fears about Condition One carry... or storage, or night stand... is the thought that "there is a round in the chamber and that gun has a hair trigger". I've had that and similar said to me for years. When a new to the 1911 shooter questions me on the subject, I suggest that he/she carry the 1911 for three or four weeks cocked, with an empty chamber. I even offer to buy them dinner if the hammer drops. No one has taken my offer of dinner yet, but they come to realize that the three safeties on the 1911 make it one of the safest pistols in existence. Manual, Grip and keep your darn finger off the trigger!

Now.... back to Naked Gun 33 1/3

I found this really good video that explains why the 1911 safeties are better than striker fired guns.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3f4-dvaWRg4&t=160s

1911's in Condition 1
Glock's in Condition 1

...

Both are/should be fine and go bang when (and only when) they're supposed to.

However, for a "nightstand gun" I think it's tough to beat the inherent safety and simplicity of a good ole .357 revolver. Just M2C.

another good watch

but but that's not a 1911:eek:

Yes, yes ... I know but somewhere along the way I saw a post about nightstand vs carry guns, got distracted and then; BAM! Squirrel!! 357's!!!

It happens to me often enough, just ask my wife :D

Walking around cocked and locked for extended periods of time causes things to turn blue.. :eek:

ahhhhhh wait what?!:eek:

You been visiting Elliosn?

***squirrel***

So, I will open my mouth and get into trouble here.

Of 9 hand guns in our house 6 are loaded and 4 in condition 1 (SA's) the hammers are down on my wife's revolvers because that's her preference. My EDC is holstered in 1, the front and back door guns as well as my night stander(NS) are all 1911's. The NS has gone up to 3 months without being cycled, it's a Kimber Eclipse II pro (seriously reworked) mim-reduction...:D Okay Clyde.

Generally they get the once over monthly give or take a week or so, this includes unloading the mag in the garage range every 6 to 8 months. This practice has been in place for better than 2 decades with no gun issues noted.

I have had this very discussion with several armorers over the years, Army, Navy, Marines and a friend in NN Tactical. One statement from all concerning the 1911. A mil spec or equivalent grade 1911 with proper maintenance can spend its entire life in condition 1 with no ill effects in operation or performance.

The weak link is supposedly the mag spring. Back in 2012 I was doing an inspection / retrieval at an Army/ Navy storage facility. Several friends were in the process of de-milling some 45 acp ammo loaded in the early 60's packaged in mags... part of the de-mill process was to test fire a sample of ammo from each lot. Ammo packaged in mags in the 60's fired flawlessly and they went through hundreds of magazines. Truly disgusting sight.:mad:

What a waste of good ammunition!

No kidding! Considering most all small arms ammo of that era came from Lake City, impeccable ammunition!

Especially since the order came from an O-head executive order to reduce war reserves... yes reduce small arms reserves.:eek:

now I must shutup. But he is an effin sh*t head!